The Milano Has Landed!

After considering feedback from my lovely, intimate group of readers here, I wanted to addresses a few more issues that may arise when Indian guys take a stab at dating Western style.

My initial advice was for Indian guys just to go right up to girls they find cute and chat with them. R, my Chief Indian Correspondent (CIC), said it isn’t always that simple. As I said in my last post, I have always thought brown is beautiful. So for me it’s hard to imagine race barriers. However, as my CIC pointed out, there are many instances where Western women simply won’t give an Indian guy a chance for reasons beyond his personal character.

Perhaps some Westerners just aren’t attracted to brown guys. That’s ok and not wrong at all. But I can’t help but think there is something more to what some Westerners associate with being Indian…

First of all, India gets a bad rap in the American media. It’s a poorly misunderstood place and many Westerners have all sort of absurd notions about Indians. I won’t go into those specifics, but as a lover of Indian culture, it makes me sad. Not many people know that India is an incredibly complex and mesmerizing place as is its people. So, when an Indian guy takes on Western ways of dating, he may confront many ignorant views and misconceptions about who Indians are.

As I further consider what I see going down at “meat market” bars what R-CIC says makes more sense. As much as I know and love about Indians, I don’t represent the Western cultural norm. So R-CIC cautions that Indians can be turned down just because of the color of their skin. This factor makes it less easy to “just go up and talk to a girl!” as I originally suggested. I still say, Indian guys shouldn’t stop trying. I’d say, don’t stop talking to people, being inquisitive, interested, and engaging. If stereotypes and myths are the reasons for being rejected, they have got to break down somewhere. And this usually comes through personal contact. However, when you’re not feeling like a cultural maverick, you might scope out more “Indian friendly” establishments with a mix of people from all sorts of backgrounds. These tend to be the places I hang out as well. Usually I am more comfortable in a group of mixed people from all different backgrounds versus establishments that seem to almost exclusively attract the “white crowd.”

Another issue R-CIC brought up is that Indian dudes tend to keep issues of dating and relationships on the down-low with their family, friends, and specifically parents. Westerners tend to keep their parents more in the loop in terms of who they are more seriously dating. This can cause conflict. On one hand, you might have an American girl saying, “Ugh you’re 28 and you can’t tell your parents about us? What? You have no balls.” And the Indian dude might reply, “Look it’s truly different in Indian culture. None of us tell our parents about who we’re with until we are about to get engaged. Dating isn’t the cultural norm for us…and telling our parents about our dating can actually be seen as a sign of disrespect.” So, what has to happen here is establishing some middle ground. Perhaps the American girl won’t meet the parents until they are super serious. But, the Indian guy has to a least tell his parents that he is dating someone Western style. He can tell his parents he’s not doing this out of disrespect but as a personal choice he felt compelled to make. Well, that’s at least what R and I did . Another nuance to this is that when Americans tell their families they are dating someone seriously it usually doesn’t imply they are going to indefinitely marry this person. Often in Indian culture, even the knowledge of a significant other can send the message that marriage is imminent. Again, see Part II…traditionally Indians meet and marry then get to know each other. Anyway, the secrecy/openness can be a significant issue as Indian/American relationships progress. To quote R, “I think there is a balance between understanding an Indian guy’s need to be sure about what he is doing before revealing things to the family/friends/social network and a western girl’s need to be open and embraced, not hidden.”

Now, the even more interesting stuff happens when you get past dating and into more serious territory . Indians and Westerners have all sorts of comfort zones. Some are more liberal and open-minded and some are more traditional and conservative. I’ll admit right out that I have sort of a bias towards understanding more traditional/conservative Indians versus traditional/conservative Americans. Here’s why. One example that is many Indians are Hindu, at least the ones I’ve known, and the religion is pretty open, fluid and condisive to co-existing with other faiths–I dig this. Hinduism makes no claims about who’s Saved, or Chosen, or will be sucked up in a Rapture as believed in many conservative/fundamentalist sects of American religions. Hinduism is much more of an inclusive, open system of belief. Traditional/conservative Indians can be hard headed and cling fiercely to nonsensical beliefs in other areas though. I guess I just find Indian hard headed beliefs much, much easier to deal with than many of the exclusion based traditional/conservative American beliefs I have seen expressed. Plus, in my mind you get a crapload of overwhelming benefits from the T/C Indian side that I thoroughly enjoy: vibrant saris, insider info on one of the most fascinating countries in the world, food that makes my knees weak, and an intuitive, rich sense of spirituality. This love and admiration I have for many things Indian won’t change the conflicts and annoyances that will inevitably arise with in-laws and family. I think it will, however, help lighten the load. So, this all contributes to my bias and personal comfort zone.

So as more of a liberal/open-minded person, dealing with a T/C Indian family is actually much easier for me than dealing with a T/C American family.

My point is, if you are an Indian from a L/O-M family you and a T/C Westerner could probably work things out. If you are an Indian from L/O-M family you and a L/O-M probably have an even better shot. If you are an Indian from a T/C family trying to be with a T/C Westerner you will likely have a challenge on your hands.

As one of my other gurus, CT, suggested…

“It seems to me, if you have two conservative traditionalists, one on the Indian side of the spectrum and one on the conservative, Western side, they are naturally going to butt heads. If you have one traditional, conservative and an open-minded yielding person on the other end, it’s going to be so much easier.”

So when/if things get more serious these are the things you have to consider. Even if you are an Indian dude willing to go to bat for everything your T/C Westerner wants with your T/C family, you should think hard. I know situations where this has seemed to work, but it doesn’t come without strife, anger, and diligent problem solving.

Beyond the personal love an Indian and Westerner might share, I would encourage both partners to think about their limits and feel out their comfort zones when considering family, friends, and raising children. So I came out and said my personal bias, and while I won’t opt to hang in such circles, I really have nothing personal against T/C Americans. It’s more a matter of personal fit, and to quote the old cliche, there really is someone out there for every one. Sometimes this union is found between an Indian and a Westerner, and sometimes, even for reasons beyond their personal love, it is not.

Wecome to my second installment of addressing a reader’s question regarding how Indian men can learn to date more Western style!

****DISCLAIMER****
By no means am I making grand cultural assumptions or generalizations about Indians or Westerners here. These impressions are entirely based on my personal, individual experiences. I am more than happy to receive comments on alternative experiences!
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In my experience with dating several, more culture bound, second-generation Indian guys I have noticed the following trends:

1. Indian guys are even more clueless than Western guys in dating and relationships. Major historical and sociological factors support this discrepancy. For women wanting to understand most men in the West, go buy Greg Behrendts’s, He’s Just Not That Into You. You should have most of your questions answered there. To be frank, American dudes are more straightforward and easier to read. Even though things are changing, Indians do not often have parents, family, or friends all that experienced, knowledgeable, or supportive in terms of helping them understand the process of meeting someone, dating, and perhaps getting married. In some more traditional Indian circles in America, dating is still frowned upon as a violation of one’s duty to family and society. Thus, arranged marriage still the remains the chief main method for union.

2. Due to inexperience the area, Indian guys may have more trouble dealing with the overwhelming feelings that arise when dating. Because Indian society often programs its people to be with ONE person and ONE person only (your spouse) it can be harder for Indian guys to learn how to date several people and take things less seriously. I think it’s harder for Indian guys to fathom being intimate with more than one person in physical and emotional ways. To be frank, Indian guys seem to have a propensity to fall faster and harder. Again, many more tradition bound Indians are used to a sort of MEET, MARRY, then figure it all out later process. The commitment in arranged marriage situations is made UPFRONT so re-programming this mentality can be tricky. Hopefully, I can offer some solutions to help Indian guys attack dating with a more measured approach to help safeguard their feelings.

Bearing these two major trends in mind, I wish to offer kind of a Western style dating primer for Indian guys. American tends to do the reverse of how traditional Indian unions proceed. For us in the West, it is usually approached as follows: meet, hang out, date, then date exclusively (for a while…1-3 years typically), and perhaps even make a greater commitment like marriage.

1. Tips about meeting and approaching women is a whole blog onto itself. In a nutshell, the best way to meet others is to be an interesting person. I don’t know how to instruct people to do that either. But I can say people who have a zest for life, love of learning, and inquisitive, nonjudgmental way of looking at the world are most appealing. Develop hobbies, interests of your own and pursue them. It builds confidence in who you are and what you have to offer. Don’t go to a damn cooking class as a primary way to meet people. Attend a class, a lecture, or join a team because you are genuinely interested in it. A nice byproduct of being an interesting person is meeting other interesting people at venues you are genuinely interested in. Most, if not all, of the best relationships bud serendipitously while you’re living your life.

2. While you are pursuing your interests, keep your eyes open and your radar antenna for dating possibilities up. I make a special note of this because many Indian guys tend to be a little oblivious to signals that women are interested in them. For example, a significant reason I have had success with Indian guys is because I have an extremely outgoing personality. At times I can sort of bust right into intense conversation which I have found Indian guys to quite like (white guys find it unsettling and distastefully bold because THEY tend to like being the chasers). Indian guys have typically LOVED being pursued by me. But not that many women are like me. On a whole, women expect YOU to chase THEM. So, you have to learn to chase.

3. Now, how to chase. Start slow. Talk. Causally. Listen, nod, feel out if you are genuinely interested in her as well as vice versa. Is she looking at you, smiling, playing with her hair, seeming to enjoy talking with you? Those are good signs. If she’s trying to get away from you, busy tooling around with her friends or ANOTHER GUY, she’s probably not that into you. If you read GO signals, ask her to a casual coffee (or ask to buy her a drink if you are at a bar). I repeat. CASUAL. COFFEE. JUST A VODKA TONIC. START SLOW.

4. Dealing with rejection. Crap. You read the signals wrong. She has a boyfriend. She wormed her way out with some sorry excuse. She let you buy her a drink and she ditches you. Crap! Rejection. But remember how you started slow? This is merely a casual rejection. No big deal, there will be more. Take it easy. Again, I stress taking it easy because I have met so many highly idealistic Indian men who take rejections extremely hard. Sometimes you have to kiss a lot of frogetts before your find your princess. So take it easy, be cool, and don’t take these minor slights too hard. NEXT!

5. The girl wants coffee! Cool! A minor victory. Throw on a nice shirt, shave, and have fun casually hanging out. See where it goes. If it goes poorly, it’s just another minor slight remember? Buck up! There will be more! If it goes well, YOU need to ask her to go on a date. Like, a dinner date. Don’t drag it out, you are again still very new and casual.

6. Again, remember the emotions and chemicals of attraction are very strong. For the first few months use your head instead of your heart. Though you might want to dive in head over heels, Western style works best when you give things time to develop, room to grow. So have fun, try not and take things too seriously in these early stages.

*****So, it might be really tough to be bold, ask to buy girls drinks or out on dates. In fact, it can be terrifying and does involve some risk. But this is part of riding the Western dating wave. It can be exciting too!******

Now when I first started learning about all this stuff I found this Indian guy’s blog posts to be interesting and helpful:

Dating Indian Men Part I:
http://blog.libranlover.net/2006/04/dating-indian-men-i.html

Dating Indian Men Part II:
http://blog.libranlover.net/2006/04/dating-indian-men-ii.html

Indian Men and Interracial Dating:
http://blog.libranlover.net/2005/07/indian-men-and-inter-racial-dating.html

That’s all for now! I’ll see where we’re at with comments and think about a third post…

I have been immensely enjoying my selfish derailment from the original intent of this blog. Instead of the writing advicey, ‘how-to’ kinds of stuff I had promised to upfront, readers will hopefully sense I’ve been basking in my occasionally narcissistic renderings of my awkward, budding youth. However, a special reader has asked me to write about a topic he perceives I know well. Though I worry I will spoil how the story of young N.K. and her life of intimate relationships turns out in doing so, I thought I’d offer some of my more recent learnings for one of my special visitors (I wanted to say ‘pretty ones’ but I didn’t think readers would get the Anne Sexton reference and deem me more imbalanced than I occasionally am).

Moving right along, I have been asked specifically to talk about how Indian guys can succeed at scoring white chicks. For various reasons I get a little nervous attacking the issue in this way. So, I’ve decided to speak more to how Indian guys, especially those more culture bound, can perhaps begin to date and have Western style relationships if that is what they seek.

****DISCLAIMER****
By no means am I making grand cultural assumptions or generalizations about Indians or Westerners here. These impressions are entirely based on my personal, individual experiences. I am more than happy to receive comments on alternative experiences!

So what makes me an expert on Indians who want to date Western style? I, as an American chick, have felt a relatively steady attraction to Indian culture and men throughout my early to mid twenties. I have been mostly attracted to NRI’s (non-resident Indians living abroad) who are more culture-bound and maintain their traditional ties. For a while, I wasn’t exactly sure why. On a very primal level, I think brown is beautiful. I can’t tell you how many liquid brown eyes, heads of thick, dark hair, and various shades of brown I have been attracted to over the years. Beyond that, I’ve always loved the dynamic and savory food that warms my belly and soul much more than my tongue. Who knew there was life outside of mac and cheese and apple pies?! Even as a lover of all sorts of ethnic cuisines, Indian food has especially taught me how to experience the richness, complexity, and communal intimacy of taking substance into ones body. Indian food has taught me how to eat.

Anyway, when I met my first Indian friends in college I felt almost an immediate bond with them. I was in a major I didn’t particularly love but felt it offered me a distinct way to support myself because no one else would. I would have reveled in studying English, art or psychology, but I was sort of cornered into an area of science that would bear practical, working world results. Or, so I was told. I didn’t meet many other Western students with this same mentality. Basically I saw a bunch of American kids, dilly-dallying around in classes I would have thrived in, drunk at frat parties, and driving SUV’s on their parents dime. It made me confused and mad. I thought everyone in college had to save their whole lives just to be there learning, like me. The people who often really understood the pressure of being in a field you weren’t in love with to reach a more practical, often imposed goal were Indian students. Perhaps the Indian kids and I had more choice than we had initially thought, but regardless, we were kind of stuck in the same boat together. So, navigating these waters encompassed a sense of duty, responsibility, discipline, and often a deep appreciation of subjects we felt we couldn’t study freely (religion, sociology, music, etc.).

The Indians I knew in college also tended to volunteer like me, they traveled like I traveled (minimally, rough and balls out) and seemed to roll with a humility and selflessness I found uncanny and more typical of perhaps an older generation.

So I have had a good personal history with Indian people and India itself.

And then there are the alleged Coconuts. I’ve always been skeptical of the Coconuts. These guys appear (and often boast) they are white on the inside and brown on the outside. Coconuts, by definition, aren’t really all that down with perpetuating their Indian roots in terms of religion, food, culture, and so on. Currently, there is a pretty distinct pocket of Coconuts who identify closely with hip-hop culture. Anyway, Coconuts appear to have an easier time with Western style relationships. This might be because they truly feel more comfortable dating non-Indian people or more Western/American minded people. Or, Indians who identify more closely with American ways could come from more non-traditional families. However, for Coconuts who come from more traditional families, I am skeptical that they somehow seek Western ways out of shame, confusion, rebellion, uneasiness or contempt for their own upbringing.

The point of this post isn’t to address Coconuts–perhaps I will further down the line. After all, Coconuts already “seem” to have an easier time dating Western chicks. It’s just that pesky Indian, culture-bound family that seems to cause problems for the “Western minded couple” . However, I have always suspected that you can take the boy out of India, but you can’t ever fully take the India out of the boy. Ah, one of the things I love about the conundrum of India is, to quote a favorite book, that no matter what, “India always wins.” Of the hundreds of places I have been abroad, even just one month in India changed me like no place else. At times India may be obtuse, nauseating, downright criminal or insane to the Western mind, but in the end, I tend to believe it never leaves you. Especially if you are Indian. In the end, India always wins.

So these posts are for those boys who realize their Indianness and struggle with how it affects their desires to want to date like we do in the West. The questions that arise from these problems are “How would this go over with my family?” “How do I handle all the emotions of dating, ‘hook ups,’ and the ambiguities of relationships having little knowledge, experience, and support from family with such?” (i.e. most traditional Indians are raised to believe the arranged marriage is the destined, dutiful way). “How would I balance two different worlds, one being exploring more Western notions of love and Indian notions of dharma, duty, responsibility to my community?” “Can I ever really date/have a relationship/marry like a Westerner does given what I have been taught and have come to know my whole life as an Indian?”—perhaps that is the essential question.

These are really tough, legitimate questions. Every individual will answer them to different and varying degrees. The first, most basic thing I would always say is that to whatever extent one embraces their Indianness (and that may actually take a while to figure out) be proud. I’ve seen many Indian guys who kind of underplay their Indianness for the sake of fitting in or to not scare, offend, or weird-out Westerners (BAH!). I’m not saying you have to go around wearing an India badge on your arm or refuse to shave that mustache, but be proud of where you come from no matter what. I know that’s actually a pretty general statement but I think it needs to be said. It took me a long time to embrace my small town, barely there public education, and lack of money growing up. But it’s a part of who I am and I cannot hide from it. The same goes if you were raised as a Greek Orthodox, a gypsy, or an Indian. Someone once told me that when in New York, true New Yorkers can spot a phony a mile a way. New Yorkers just want you to be who you are, to be real. Embrace who you are and where you come from. Don’t be afraid to show it to the world–the people worth it will want to see.

Well, I think I will leave things right here for now. Hopefully, I’ve given a good primer for where I’m going next in addressing the big questions. Stay tuned for the practical, more “how-to” specifics in my next post…

Besides Mama Nell (read Did Ya Pretzel?) I had one other older, guru-type gal I idolized throughout my college quandaries over boys: Maxine.

Even though Maxine and Mama Nell were best friends, occasionally wearing matching pink tube tops on Saturday nights, Maxine had more of a grounded, accessible personality. She was passionate about achieving her master’s in education, supervised all the R.A.’s, and had quite possibly the most ideal and creative views on relationships I have come to know.

Though her “real apartment” was still technically inside the dorm, I loved going to her grown up place as a measly undergrad RA in search of wisdom. On the lucky evenings I’d find her around, she’d usually answer the door and usher me in with her defining, raspy voice, “One sec I’m on the phone.” I’d sit on her couch, wait patiently, and survey all her seemingly exotic travels pictures on the wall. The snapshot of her in a tube top, riding a camel, and whirling an imaginary lasso especially captivated me.

Maxine was outspokenly sassy, in love with life, and beautiful. Her trademark long, thick, and swishing blonde hair could be invariably noticed as she swiveled through the dorm halls. All the horny undergrad guys were enamored with her husky voice, cougar-like mental sharpness, and curvy mystique.

“Ok, done. What’s up?” she’d say.

“Oh nothing…it’s just Brian and our pretzeling. He’s so complex…”

“N.K. You just need to ask yourself one question: is this guy the Gran Pasion?”

“The wha?” I was immediately intrigued.

Maxine took a long, deep breath and closed her eyes.

“N.K. you cannot settle for anything less than the Gran Pasion.” She opened her eyes as if a divine revelation had just been made.

Maxine proceeded to tell me about her study abroad adventures in Spain with her other tube top wearing friend, Emily. They stayed with a Spanish woman in her late sixties, Pilar. Pilar had burning red hair, further accented by black roots, donned bright blue eye shadow, and frequently wore past-the-knee polyester skirts. She never wanted to hear about Maxine or Emily’s classes or what they were learning. She cared about three things: boys, tanning and blonde hair.

I’m not sure what fascinated me more: the fact that Maxine could have such experiences or Pilar herself.

When Maxine and Emily came home from weekend adventures Pilar would want to hear about all their escapades–especially with boys. Most of all, she loved the girls’ matching pink tube tops. When the girls spoke about their horrible, dramatic breakups all Pilar would talk about was her husband. During the Spanish Civil war, she and her young beau would flee Spain to live South America for many years before returning home. Though her husband had passed away many years ago, Pilar wept and pleaded saying, “mi marido” the “gran pasion…hay solamente uno.” To the girls, she insisted that when you know you just know you’ve found The One. Though Maxine regrets not knowing Spanish better to get more details, she has never forgotten the way Pilar would kind of glance off to the side with this faraway look in her eyes and repeat, “hay solamente uno…”

Pilar’s revelation just turned my world upside down. I knew I had to find the Gran Pasion. I knew when I was old I wanted tears to stream down my face when I thought of him. I knew I could never settle for anything else.

I come from a long line of crazed lovers. My great-great uncle was said to be an eccentric, failed farm machinery inventor, and glass eye wearing recluse who lived in a dirt floor shack. Even he was desperate for an ideal love as he would send ads to Asian newspapers hoping to find someone special. My father had many chances to marry stable, well-put-together women, but for some reason, only the loony-ness of my mother made him swoon. Though my parents’ relationship would fluctuate from tumultuous and damaging to a peaceful repair over 30 years, my dad would remain stubborn and faithful to his initial thoughts on love. “I had to be in love to marry. I know things have not been easy for me but the person I was passionate about was your mother and still am.” As much as I contemn some of the terms of their union, my own love requirements are more similar to my father’s than I care to admit.

Though the story of the Gran Pasion didn’t change Maxine’s life, she would somehow remember it forever.

Many years later Maxine would reminisce, “What Pilar made me realize was that John was not the Gran Pasion, but Thomas was.”

Ever since Maxine told me the story of the Gran Pasion its mythology has woven in and out of every single one of my relationships. Throughout every date past number three to long-term, sometimes desperate, ordeals I have never stopped asking myself, “Is this the Gran Pasion?” Regardless of the situation, or the guy involved, I have always known the answer to this question in my heart…and still do.

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Sometimes I feel glad that Maxine didn’t know Spanish better. For some reason I like that Pilar could only weep and share a few words about her Gran Pasion. In this way, the ambiguity of her story has given me the freedom to imagine what her Grand Pasion, and more important my Gran Pasion, would be. Her vague yet intense emotional narrative has allowed the essence, the myth of The Gran Pasion to live in me without tarnish.

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Special thanks to H.M. (Maxine ) for help with co-authoring.

“Perhaps the greatest beauty of the writing life is that it offers you concrete evidence of all your changes; the pages you write are like those charts nurses place at the end of your bed to map your progress. Whatever you need to know about yourself is there, if only you know how to read it.”

My sexual and social naiveté persisted well into my college years. Thus, I went to the big University determined to live in an alcohol-free dorm so I could focus on my schoolwork. The most redeeming thing that came out of the alcohol-free dorm was my best college friend, who I affectionately called (and still call), Chom. Chom was a bright, eccentric upperclassman and academic hall mentor. She could never seem to manage the clutter in her dorm room, taught me to love Middle Eastern food, and embraced all my quirks and social helplessness. Sometimes we’d talk all night and I’d eventually sleep on her Flip & F*** even though my room was right next-door.

Chom swears to this day that during one of our late night chats I asked her where babies came from. I still dispute some of the facts leading up to her lessons in reproductive health, however, I acknowledge I did say something like “So when can a woman get pregnant?” I was a freshman in college.

Upon hearing this question, Chom cocked her head to one side and nonchalantly examined me through her thick, trendy frames. “Well…are you asking about the fertility cycle?”

“Yes.”

“You really don’t know how it works?” Chom inquired, still without judgment, but with a now definite curiously.

I just stood there blankly.

“Well, you know the egg drops every month right?” she asked hopefully.

“Yes, I mean, I know that…” I desperately prayed that Chom would expand.

Chom went on to tell me how long sperm can live inside the vagina, days of peak fertility, and how hormones work. It was an awakening.

As I said, Chom never teased me about not knowing such basics until she started meeting my boyfriends.

At any rate, I’m thankful I had Chom to take me under her wing and teach specifics on the birds and the bees. By the time my biology class rolled around that semester, I was an old pro with the material. Unfortunately, I didn’t have to use the knowledge on a practical level until my Big City days many years later…