After considering feedback from my lovely, intimate group of readers here, I wanted to addresses a few more issues that may arise when Indian guys take a stab at dating Western style.
My initial advice was for Indian guys just to go right up to girls they find cute and chat with them. R, my Chief Indian Correspondent (CIC), said it isn’t always that simple. As I said in my last post, I have always thought brown is beautiful. So for me it’s hard to imagine race barriers. However, as my CIC pointed out, there are many instances where Western women simply won’t give an Indian guy a chance for reasons beyond his personal character.
Perhaps some Westerners just aren’t attracted to brown guys. That’s ok and not wrong at all. But I can’t help but think there is something more to what some Westerners associate with being Indian…
First of all, India gets a bad rap in the American media. It’s a poorly misunderstood place and many Westerners have all sort of absurd notions about Indians. I won’t go into those specifics, but as a lover of Indian culture, it makes me sad. Not many people know that India is an incredibly complex and mesmerizing place as is its people. So, when an Indian guy takes on Western ways of dating, he may confront many ignorant views and misconceptions about who Indians are.
As I further consider what I see going down at “meat market” bars what R-CIC says makes more sense. As much as I know and love about Indians, I don’t represent the Western cultural norm. So R-CIC cautions that Indians can be turned down just because of the color of their skin. This factor makes it less easy to “just go up and talk to a girl!” as I originally suggested. I still say, Indian guys shouldn’t stop trying. I’d say, don’t stop talking to people, being inquisitive, interested, and engaging. If stereotypes and myths are the reasons for being rejected, they have got to break down somewhere. And this usually comes through personal contact. However, when you’re not feeling like a cultural maverick, you might scope out more “Indian friendly” establishments with a mix of people from all sorts of backgrounds. These tend to be the places I hang out as well. Usually I am more comfortable in a group of mixed people from all different backgrounds versus establishments that seem to almost exclusively attract the “white crowd.”
Another issue R-CIC brought up is that Indian dudes tend to keep issues of dating and relationships on the down-low with their family, friends, and specifically parents. Westerners tend to keep their parents more in the loop in terms of who they are more seriously dating. This can cause conflict. On one hand, you might have an American girl saying, “Ugh you’re 28 and you can’t tell your parents about us? What? You have no balls.” And the Indian dude might reply, “Look it’s truly different in Indian culture. None of us tell our parents about who we’re with until we are about to get engaged. Dating isn’t the cultural norm for us…and telling our parents about our dating can actually be seen as a sign of disrespect.” So, what has to happen here is establishing some middle ground. Perhaps the American girl won’t meet the parents until they are super serious. But, the Indian guy has to a least tell his parents that he is dating someone Western style. He can tell his parents he’s not doing this out of disrespect but as a personal choice he felt compelled to make. Well, that’s at least what R and I did
. Another nuance to this is that when Americans tell their families they are dating someone seriously it usually doesn’t imply they are going to indefinitely marry this person. Often in Indian culture, even the knowledge of a significant other can send the message that marriage is imminent. Again, see Part II…traditionally Indians meet and marry then get to know each other. Anyway, the secrecy/openness can be a significant issue as Indian/American relationships progress. To quote R, “I think there is a balance between understanding an Indian guy’s need to be sure about what he is doing before revealing things to the family/friends/social network and a western girl’s need to be open and embraced, not hidden.”
Now, the even more interesting stuff happens when you get past dating and into more serious territory
. Indians and Westerners have all sorts of comfort zones. Some are more liberal and open-minded and some are more traditional and conservative. I’ll admit right out that I have sort of a bias towards understanding more traditional/conservative Indians versus traditional/conservative Americans. Here’s why. One example that is many Indians are Hindu, at least the ones I’ve known, and the religion is pretty open, fluid and condisive to co-existing with other faiths–I dig this. Hinduism makes no claims about who’s Saved, or Chosen, or will be sucked up in a Rapture as believed in many conservative/fundamentalist sects of American religions. Hinduism is much more of an inclusive, open system of belief. Traditional/conservative Indians can be hard headed and cling fiercely to nonsensical beliefs in other areas though. I guess I just find Indian hard headed beliefs much, much easier to deal with than many of the exclusion based traditional/conservative American beliefs I have seen expressed. Plus, in my mind you get a crapload of overwhelming benefits from the T/C Indian side that I thoroughly enjoy: vibrant saris, insider info on one of the most fascinating countries in the world, food that makes my knees weak, and an intuitive, rich sense of spirituality. This love and admiration I have for many things Indian won’t change the conflicts and annoyances that will inevitably arise with in-laws and family. I think it will, however, help lighten the load. So, this all contributes to my bias and personal comfort zone.
So as more of a liberal/open-minded person, dealing with a T/C Indian family is actually much easier for me than dealing with a T/C American family.
My point is, if you are an Indian from a L/O-M family you and a T/C Westerner could probably work things out. If you are an Indian from L/O-M family you and a L/O-M probably have an even better shot. If you are an Indian from a T/C family trying to be with a T/C Westerner you will likely have a challenge on your hands.
As one of my other gurus, CT, suggested…
“It seems to me, if you have two conservative traditionalists, one on the Indian side of the spectrum and one on the conservative, Western side, they are naturally going to butt heads. If you have one traditional, conservative and an open-minded yielding person on the other end, it’s going to be so much easier.”
So when/if things get more serious these are the things you have to consider. Even if you are an Indian dude willing to go to bat for everything your T/C Westerner wants with your T/C family, you should think hard. I know situations where this has seemed to work, but it doesn’t come without strife, anger, and diligent problem solving.
Beyond the personal love an Indian and Westerner might share, I would encourage both partners to think about their limits and feel out their comfort zones when considering family, friends, and raising children. So I came out and said my personal bias, and while I won’t opt to hang in such circles, I really have nothing personal against T/C Americans. It’s more a matter of personal fit, and to quote the old cliche, there really is someone out there for every one. Sometimes this union is found between an Indian and a Westerner, and sometimes, even for reasons beyond their personal love, it is not.
February 28, 2008 at 2:01 am
You called me a guru, NK! I love it! Great post!
I wanted to add to what you said about dealing with not meeting the parents when dating an Indian guy. Before meeting my Indian guy (M), I was in a long term relationship with a Filipino man who lived with his parents and never once told them about me or let me meet them. It drove me absolutely crazy, and I think was one of the factors that led to the end of our relationship.
But having had that experience, I was prepared for similar cultural practices with M and his family. I didn’t push him to meet his parents or family (even though at times I found it frustrating). And one day after we had already started talking about marriage and spending our lives together, M finally told them about me on his own, and I got to meet them as well as his extended family (who knew nothing about my existence for 2 years).
It was only at that point that I truly realized why it was so important for him to wait until we knew we were going to marry to tell them about me. If I hadn’t been sure at that point that he was the one for me and hadn’t been ready to marry, all the immediate wedding talk and fuss from his parents, cousins, uncles, aunties, and the community at large would have been incredible overwhelming pressure. I’m pretty sure I would have felt prematurely trapped, and it may have even scared me away.
I totally understand that for couples who anticipate resistance from the Indo parents, broaching the subject is important to give time and a chance to discuss concerns and fears, but, in my case, M knew there’d be no resistance and in retrospect I’m glad that he waited. I’m glad that as I met and got to know the newest generation of his family, I didn’t have to worry when they called me auntie whether or not I really am going to be an auntie to them, and I could just enjoy the overwhelming and immediate embrace of his family without feeling suffocated.
Just wanted to offer that as another potential way to deal with cultural differences. I think it all depends on the particular circumstances.
February 28, 2008 at 3:09 am
After a casual conversation with CS earlier, he was asking when I was going to go visit my mom again. I was like I dunno, she’s got a new job and working during the week..so I’m not sure. He was like oh okay. Then he mentioned for us just taking a day road trip perhaps, and I was cool with that. Then he casually slipped in something about perhaps meeting my family. I was like okay, we might do that. Secretly it just caught me off guard and threw me for a loop. I am still not sure what it meant. It kinda scared me to be honest. And he may just be wanting to me nice and friendly. He always asks me how my parents and family is doing, he knows I am close to a lot of them. Any thoughts?
CT I like your insight to this as well. Like you, unless I’m ready to go head-to-head, I don’t want the parents really knowing because I only want to have to make the fight once and that fight should be reserved for the long-haul.
February 28, 2008 at 4:52 am
BTW, this has nothing to do with the above, but I wanted to say thanks for having the link to my blog and to some others. You’re link to AngKantz blog has helped me with some food allergy problems I have wondered about.
February 28, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Woahh wooahh woah here ara. Meet your family? Um, I don’t think so!! Not until you are in a solid, committed relationship…right?? I mean if you guys are not in the right place with your relationship I doubt it’s time to introduce to parents (?).
Here it is straight: you guys both have to figure out what you want and then go for it. Until then, I would keep communication minimal. Limbo land can drive you nuts…
But maybe I don’t have all the facts, just dropping my two cents into the bucket!
February 28, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. Just the mere thought of introducing him to my family scared the bejeze out of me. I do NOT think I am ready for that step..and for the time being, will just simply ignore it LOL. I am definitely not ready for limbo with my parents.
And you really do pretty much have all of the facts. We’ve had a conversation before in which he asked when it was appropriate to tell the American parents as he put it. I told him that I would only want my parents to know once I was really ready to fight for the long-haul. That I only want to have to make this fight once, and it should be for the one it counts.
February 29, 2008 at 5:37 am
hey ! I’m back, I just love reading these posts. Not all westerners are attracted to brown guys, at least I get the feeling that most aren’t
. A lot of negatives are associated with us by the media, ironically the indian american community prides itself as being higher on the socioeconomic ladder.
On the other hand, I see a lot of indian guys, at least interested in western girls, even the conservative ones on a passive level.I would call it the adolescent *porn* effect, lol.
NK, i’ve tried to initiate some nice conversations,but to no avail, i’m not even trying now a day’s. I get the feeling blond surfer dudes are still in, out here.
One group of girls I do tend to attract is the Evangelists, who seem to be keen on taking all my secular humanism out of me,looks like even they have given up.
I think, I would tell my parents, in a month or two,if I was seeing someone, coz they’ve have said its cool. But, its better to test waters before, to know how they really respond to it. Then, again its another matter when you dive head down deep into it.
February 29, 2008 at 5:41 am
hmmm, I think ara is serious on him. ara, you guys are getting close to the point where you guys need to figure out, if you want to go all the way.
NK, is the expert, go with her girl !!!!
February 29, 2008 at 6:53 am
I think well that CS did make a decision in a direction earlier tonight. We have never really gone out in public, other than the park or to eat anyway. We always just hang around my place because he’s always afraid of his Indian friends thinking he’s dating. Anyway, he asked me if I wanted to go to the Irish Festival tomorrow..unfortunately I have to work
but he did say instead, one day soon, he’d like us to go on a picnic though *blush* I always get shy
February 29, 2008 at 7:46 am
awwww, thats so sweet
im sure you guys will have fun I know what he means,i’ might write a post on the mob mentality sometime soon.
February 29, 2008 at 5:47 pm
That would be a great idea 6mile! I would love to read it!
March 1, 2008 at 1:38 pm
indian’s not telling theyre parents might have another side to it. it looks diffrent from my eyes.
March 1, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Hey guys! I love your messages on here! Just checking in though—I’m with my *favorite* Indian person this weekend…R!!!!!! He’s back from India now~~!!!
March 2, 2008 at 1:30 am
Congrats and have lots of fun NK!
March 2, 2008 at 7:56 am
March 4, 2008 at 3:38 pm
I’m baccckkk…get ready for some more good stuff…
March 4, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Good, we can’t wait. I NEED something besides listening to how I need to get out there and vote..blah blah blah. Already did..btw, I live in Texas, so it’s all crazy over Obama and Hilary. Personally I think it will be a combined ticket with both on it.. Either one will be fine with me LOL.
Guess what?!?! It SNOWED here… in MARCH. I live in North Texas. I haven’t seen snow in 2 years LOL. I was like WOWWWWW. Sunday it was 75 and yesterday was crazy cold with whiteout like conditions..it was amazing! A whole inch of the white stuff
It’ll be melted by this afternoon, but it was soooo pretty. All the fruitless pears and redbud trees bloomed out with white and pink blooms on Sunday..so with the snow..it was just one of the prettiest things I think I have EVER seen.
March 4, 2008 at 7:19 pm
I know!! Texas is HUGE tonight! I can’t wait to see what happens, it’s so exciting right now!
March 10, 2008 at 7:42 pm
interesting, hah came across this blog via google, unsure if you’ll read comments on old posts, but i’ll post anyway; the whole indian – dating things something ive been reading over tonight; im indian, when i was in school ( highschool ) i didnt date at all basically because i just wasnt exposed to it i associated with other kids that were just as conservative as my parents were and it just really didnt visibly happen, you’d only hear of it as rumor in school that x was dating y and all that jazz. i of course had crushes but when i was in elementry school i had a bad experience ( i had a putka which is the childs version of a turban, looks a bit cooler and takes less time to put on ) and i lived in a midwest state in a small town and most of the people definately were around one of the first indians in their school lives and there was really just one other girl that was indian. for me other indian girls just were easier to approach, but they weren’t the only girls i was attracted to. i had two different crushes in elementary school, but only one i approached, because she was indian i just felt innate comfort having grown up around other indian girls but i hadn’t even grown up around other white girls. now years later this stuff isnt nearly a problem, women arent a mystery any more, im 21, and its largely due to the internet that ive conversed with a great deal of men and women through the online games i play, and really its just ripped apart any of the discomfort there was before. although in public i still dont approach people, this comes more from being heckled all as a kid growin up and the confidence while i fight for it to be there hah sometimes i just feel very afraid in these situations and the thing is its a fear im aware of and try to overcome, but then other times my natural tendency is to sort of slink into the corner and just watch while other people mingle. thats my biggest problem, being used to just not-trying. but i think that if i did try i think people would definately recieve me better. in college i had some great reception, and i have been to bars before, have hooked up, and its usually due to confidence i have to work hard to come up with hah, but i know how to manufacture it ( genuine confidence ) but none the less ive been stricken with communication problems for years i want to say one thing but say the other, and its only if i take my time to slow down and just talk then do my real thoughts come out ( or with a couple drinks but i hate the idea of having to drink to be able to just speak ) anyway just thought i’d toss up my own littlebit of struggle hah and say good stuff on the topic yer discussin, keep it up and more people need to kind of just vent these things out in the open ;p.
March 10, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Hey, Sandeep! Thanks so much for taking time to write about your experiences! You know, I’ve gotten so much feedback on this topic, I’m thinking I will write more posts in the way of this. Feel free to stick around and contribute more!
Best,
NK
March 11, 2008 at 11:21 pm
NK, one of my friends suggested that guys go through their OWN monthly type cycles..mood swings. She suggested that I should keep a journal, and everytime that CS tends to get a little frightened off..see if it’s cyclical hehe. Which I have noticed that he seems to freak out about once a month hehe..could be coicidence though
Where is your guy from? What part of India? I heard CS talking to his roommate on the phone the other day. The language he speaks is beautiful and fluid! It’s not gutteral at all like English. Spanish is that way..one of the reasons I like it so well.
On Friday, CS and I hung out all day long thanks to a snow day at school. His next suggestion is that I need a passport so we can go to Mexico for a few days..I swear he gets more wild hares LOL. Oh well, he always keeps me laughing and smiling.
March 12, 2008 at 1:02 am
HUmmm, ara, let me contemplate…will get back to you tomorrow
March 12, 2008 at 7:07 am
i agree guys do have some kind of cycle, i hardly get to come here these days
, welcome back NK
March 12, 2008 at 5:55 pm
What Ara?! Mexico?! Dude. He’s ABCD. So my Indian GF was really into this Indian guy, right? When I finally got her to muster up the courage to tell him how she felt about him he said he wasn’t interested in her despite his obvious wanting to hang out with her all the time and stuff. Then, randomly, he wanted her to MEET HIS MOM?!?! Talk about mixed signals!!!
Now… CS?? Wha? Wha? This boy is making me dizzy. Give me his email. I will get to the bottom of it (I kid, I kid).
Ara, I have an assignment for you. Make a list of 10 things you want in a guy. On that list has to be “the guy is super into, crazy about me.”
Now…do this, have fun with it and report back. We’ll go from there
…
July 19, 2009 at 11:46 pm
ehh. informative